> Felado : 
> Re: Debate on the efficacy of accepting obsolete, but so-called
>     "free" MiGs as a means toward a credible national defense.
>
> Background: the political leadership of a small country purports to
> assure its population that it is capable to defend its sovereignty
> against potential aggressors.
Highly doubtful. Name the last agressor Hungary successfully defended
its sovereignty against. The best, in fact the only purpose of the
Hungarian army can be to provide a credible deterrent against armed
thugs like Milosevic. Note that "credible deterrent" is in fact asking
quite a bit less than "capable to defend".

> Point of Contention: Should overpriced, obsolete MiGs be obtained to
> assure viability of this proposition?
Point of Contention: how do we know the MIGs are overpriced? The Russian
debt is worth perhaps 10 cents on the dollar -- I again challenge Mr.
Zolta1ni to find a bank that would pay more for their paper. If the
Horn government gets a squadron of MIGs for Russian paper nominally
valued at $300m and de facto worth perhaps $30m, this compares quite
favorably to the single western plane that could be purchased for $30m.

> larger numbers than what it will get. Thus, the lives of the best of
> its young will be sacrificed, should a war break out, without any
> prospect of deterring the enemy.
Again, why without any prospects? How would a maximum of three western
planes (assuming that all the Russian debt is sold on the open market and
the proceeds go toward the purchase of such planes) mount a more serious
defense?

> For they say, "it costs us nothing".
>
> 7. The canard is repeated over and over again. Yet, repetition does not
> make it true.
So why do you assume that repetition will make _your_ case? You have yet to
demonstrate how the Russian debt is worth more than what the open market
thinks it's worth, or why Hungary should spend actual money on improductive
investments such as upgrading its military. The Hungarian government made
lots of unpopular moves in the past few weeks (it was high time too) but I
strongly suspect that the MIG deal is looked upon quite favorably by the
electorate. In fact, I'm willing to bet a good bottle of Tokaji that this
will not be among the ten most significant issues of the next election.

Andra1s Kornai

C. K. Zoltani wrote:

>5. The leadership of the small country, also at the edge of bankruptcy,
>decides to help out their former comrades of the powerful neighbor. They
>are fully aware of the obsolescence, poor quality and lack of durability
>of the equipment offerred as repayment. Having studied at prestigious
>school of the powerful neighbor, they also know that since 1950, in all
>wars in which the equipment of the powerful neighbor was used against

I think something is misunderstood here. The MIGs were bought not by the
Horn government but by the Antall government. Antall and his ministers
were not comrades of the soviets and they have never studied in the USSR.

Andras Nemeth

I am not a musicologist and have not checked this. I only rely on my
memory. Oh, where was I...
        As far as I know the basis for Brahms' Hungarian interest is the
period when he played his music, for a living, in the red-light district
of Hamburg. His fellow player and friend was Ede Remenyi the great (so
they say) Hungarian violinist. Brahms was also a good friend of the also
great violinist (and theoretician of violin-playing) Joseph Joachim, also
a Hungarian (this name is due to his being a Jew, while Remenyi abandoned
the name Hofmann). So that there was no need to do folkloric research for
the melodies involved, two eminent practitioners provided more than
enough raw material.
        I hope someone more qualified than me will clarify the point of
the alleged Gypsy character of the music. Again as far as I, the layman,
know, this is basically verbunkos (recruiting) music which was composed
(improvised originally?) by practicing musicians. Verbunkos is not true
folklore, it may be of Italian origin if, again, I remember Bence
Szabolcsi's studies on that (published on an LP in Hungarian, if needed I
can dig up the discographic reference).
        Good luck,
                        Robert Hetzron 

 writes:
>
> In article >, Norb the
> Hungarian > writes:

> >         I know we've been over this quite often, but the appearance of
> > this marvelous piece of rubbish always begs the asking of these two
> > questions:  Just when was the territory referred to as "Lower Slovakia" a
> > part of Slovakia?  And, when was "Lower Slovakia" (_today_ the
> > northeastern part of Hungary) not a part of Hungary?
> >
>
> I had a book edited in 1911 or 1913 in the USA where American Slovaks
> exclaimed "we want Sopron, we want the northern side of the Balaton".
> Fortunately, history went an another way - imagine the instabilites if
> roughtly a half of the Slovakia's population was non-Slovak.

        I think in the meantime Simek has answered these questions but
briefly, the territory was referred to as "Lower Slovakia" almost
constantly by the Slovaks who lived there.  Just as they referred
to other part of their territory as "Upper Slovakia" "Mountain
Slovakia" etc.  What Hungarians called the territory is their own
busineess, but they shbould not presume that Slovaks called it the
same.
         The English called it Peking, but the Chinese who live there
called it Beijing, which the world now accepts.  The English called it
Bombay, but the Indians who live there called it Mumbai, which is now
its name.  The English called it Burma, but the people who live there
called it Myanmar.  Just because the imperialist power gave something
a name for its own convenience does not mean the natives used the same
name with the same contest.  Almost any map printed by Slovak national
groups from the 1880s to the end of the Second World War will show the
counties that Slovaks considered theirs because that is where they
came from.
   These are mostly in the United States or other countries,
naturally. It would have been impossible to print them in Hungary at
the time.

> >         Ha professzor (vagy Phd-es) letemre en ilyen ocsmanyul tudnam a
> > tortenelmet, vagy annyira radikalis lennek, hogy nem tudnam a nacionalista
> > (vagy eppen Marxista....) hazugsagokat kiszurni, szegyelnem a "tudasomat"
> > nyiltan hangoztatni, nemhogy kihirdetni a poziciomat/vegzettsegemet.
> >
> Yes, it's sorrowful. There ideed are people who try to come with some
> revolutionary ideas every six months. The problem is when these revolutionary
> ideas are all the same all the time. Don't be upset: the guy does it
> routinely as to throwing such texts into arena and waits the gladiators to
> be upset. There are such Slovaks, but fortunately, there are different
> Slovaks as well.
> Roman the Slovak

         Yes there are many different Slovaks.  Including many who
have no idea of their own history except what the Czech Communists
taught them.  Welcome to the Western world, where there have been many
documents available for years that previous governments from 1849 to
1992 suppressed.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

I am a student at the Free University of Brussels in Belgium and I am
working on a paper about media policy in Hungary. I am not familiar with
this subject so I hope that some of you could help me in some way by
sending me some Internet information, newsgroup or e-mail adresses about
Hungary and Eastern Eurpoe and especially about their media policy. It is
very urgent! Deadline: May 3th.
    THANK YOU!
       My e-mail adress is:
       

   -- Student Communicatiewetenschappen Vrije Universiteit Brussel

>Norb wrote:
>
>> Jan George Frajkor wrote:
> >>   As for why Czechoslovakia refused to seriously disucss returning
>>
>> >        I know we've been over this quite often, but the appearance of
>> >this marvelous piece of rubbish always begs the asking of these two
>>> questions:  Just when was the territory referred to as "Lower Slovakia" a
> >>part of Slovakia?  And, when was "Lower Slovakia" (_today_ the
>>> northeastern part of Hungary) not a part of Hungary?

>>Not a part of Slovakia, but part of Great Moravia.
>>Before the arrival of Hungarians to Central Europe.

>O.K. It was not called by Slovaks 'Lower Slovakia' usually, but
'>Lower land'. It was familiar name for all territories, where lived
>some number of Slovaks in A-H.

> >        Norb

>Jozef Simek


Hey come on you guys, where does it all end... So the Slovaks were there before
the Hungarians came in the 11th century or whatever, but then who was there
 before
the Slovaks - the Huns, Goths, Visigoths etc ....

Oh yes and before them came - the Romans, and before them  - came the Gauls,
and before them ... well who cares, after all is it relevant ????

I mean if you took that approach to the United Kingdom (yup the Pergau Military
 Aid
linkers - of course no one ever did that before did they - certainly not the
 Americans in
Saudi Arabia, the French in their West African ex-colonies <ggrin>). Then there
 would
be so many competing liberation fronts it would be ridiculous like something ou
t
 of Monty
Python's Life of Brian. After all we were invaded in 1066 by those Normans, in
 the 5th Century
(or thereabouts) by the Saxons, before that by the Vikings, before that by the
 Romans etc .
At this stage we are at 55BC and if you believe Archbishop Usher (yes the one
 who said that
the world began in 4004 BC - based on Biblical computations), there is still
 room for a couple
more generations  of invaders

One last thought (before you delete this from your screen) - the best use for
 MIG 29's is that
made by the Dutch - yes they buy them too, but.... They strip out the engines
 and use them in
Combined Heat and Power Stations, as they have rather nifty little jet engines
 in them, which are
just right for use in Electricity generation running on all that Groenigen
 gas.....

Micky

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 
Subject: Information, please

I would like to request information from anyone reading the list who might be
able to help.

An American corporation is looking to Hungary for a place to manufacture a
potentially key food ingredient from an abundant waste product.

Who would they contact to get needed information on Hungarian regulatory laws
concerning food additives?

Does anyone know who we can ask to find out this information? Since the
project could be a real boost to Hungary in the near future we'd like to help
them out. Please e-mail any suggestions.

Thanks,

Dorothy Szepesi
> ----------------------------------------

For newsgroup readers -
Please, reply directly to the sender by email - ,
or to the  listaddress . I am not sure if Dorothy
reads the newsgroups .
Gotthard

Anybody out there know of Hungarian-English dictionaries of religious and
theological terminology?  I'm becoming a Unitarian Universalist minister and
trying to make sense of our history in Hungary and Transylvania with only
two years of Hungarian behind me.  Thanks for your help!

Scott

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:50:01 -0500 (EST)
From: 
X-To: 
Subject: Re: your mail

Kedves Arpi:
Legy olyan kedves tedd kozze hogy egy kontener indul a kovetsegrol valamikor
juniusban Budapestre. Ha valaki akar haza kuldeni valamit, ez egy biztos es
viszonylag gazdasagos mod. Erdeklodok vegyek fel a kapcsolatot
Fenyes Valival (202) 362-6730 (magyar kovetseg).

Koszonom elore is,
Szilvia (Nagy)

--------------------------------------
WWW            : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
personal email : 
mailing list   : 

The 2nd RFD for the name change of soc.culture.magyar is out.
Even though the proponent, Zoli Fekete, of that RFD thinks the only way
to resolve the problems of the group is to renaming it, let me point out
why he is absolutely wrong.
He gives the impression about the group - as hardly known even by native
speakers.
He somehow estimates the number of people reading soc.culture.magyar as couple
of hundreds, as opposed to several thousand subscribers of several Hungarian
mailing lists. He, boldly attributes it to the fact, that the name of
soc.culture.magyar does not comply with USENET conventions.
He is wrong. Zoli Fekete forgets to mention, that all the readers
of those mailing lists are aware of the existence of soc.culture.magyar ,
especially
due to posting of the soc.culture.magyar FAQs , these RFDs and other
crosspostings.

The real problems are -
a, the availability of USENET for many, especially those living in Hungary
   - his proposal does NOT solve this issue

b, the current content of soc.culture.magyar, that is full mainly with
   overheated political discussions, that keeps many away from the group,
   as it was mentioned several times during discussions
   - his proposal does NOT solve this issue, either

Therefore, I am proposing to separate 'politics' from 'culture' , as it is done
in many other cases.
This would shift the  heated debates from soc.culture.magyar therefore giving
more room to culture, and,  in the meantime would resolve the artificial and
controversial problem of not having a group with 'hungarian' in it in the
'Big Seven'.

Therefore I am asking the proponent for a 3rd round of discussion, in wich
the following topics should be called for to be discussed :

1, Do you want to rename soc.culture.magyar to soc.culture.hungarian ?
2, Do you want to create a talk.politics.hungarian group ?

Since my proposal have strong ties with the proponents current proposal,
it should be combined with it.


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
                        REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
                        talk.politics.hungarian



Newsgroup      : talk.politics.hungarian
Status         : unmoderated
Distribution   : worldwide
Summary        : A forum to discuss Hungarian (Magyar) related political issues
Proponent      : Gotthard Saghi-Szabo <  >


Topic of Discussion :
        Creation of an unmoderated group talk.politics.hungarian

Newsgroups line:
        talk.politics.hungarian   Political issues concerning Hungarians (Magya
r
 s)

Future plan :
        The group will be made transparent to email.


                                CHARTER

        The newsgroup is intended to provide a general medium for those
        interested to express, share, and exchange their views, ideas, and
        feelings about the current and past politics of Hungary, and,
        in general, political issues concerning ethnic Hungarians living all
        around the world. Questions concerning Hungarians (Magyars) living eith
e
 r
        in the country or abroad should be discussed.

        Possible discussion issues include aspects of Hungary
          - the communist and post-communist transition era in Hunagry
          - history, ideology, religions
          - societies
          - the minorities of Hungary - Gipsy, Slovak, German etc.
          - Hungarians (Magyars) as ethnic minorities in the diaspora
          - politics affecting science, technology, education
          - local news
          - economy
          - politics effecting communities abroad, problems, needs
          - other things normally discussed in the "talk.politics" newsgroups

Moderation :
        The group shall be unmoderated.

Language :
        English or Hungarian are the suggested languages for discussion,
        keeping in mind that using English makes the articles accessible
        to non-Hungarians as well as to most of the Hungarian contributors.
        Authors are encouraged to post a short English language summary of
        their Hungarian language articles.


                                RATIONALE

        Currently political issues are discussed mainly on
        soc.culture.magyar, which is the only widely available
        USENET group dealing with Hungarian issues.
        soc.culture.magyar is currently filled with heated discussions
        on Hungarian domestic and foreign politics.
        Unfortunately, the current charter of soc.culture.magyar allows and
        encourages this,that is why  after creating talk.politics.hungarian,
        we plan to change the mentioned charter.
        It is known, that several thousand users are aware of the existence of
        soc.culture.magyar,in the meantime  its relatively low traffic shows,
        the current postings keep the largest part of the audience away. The re
a
 ders
        of soc.culture.magyar show high resistence towards moderation,
        that is why the proponent thinks it is necessary to create an additiona
l
        group, to separate postings centered around politics from those
        dealing with cultural issues .
        Creating a talk.politics.hungarian would also resolve the controversial
        issue of not having a newsgroup named 'hungarian' in the 'Big Seven'.


The RFD and CFV may also be posted to some related mailing lists.
As required by the group creation guidelines, the discussion will
take place in news.groups only, so please direct your follow-ups
there.

This RFD is being posted in accordance with with the Guidelines For
Usenet Group Creation found in news.announce.newusers, dated Nov. 2, 1994.
This is a request for discussion, and is not meant to replace the actual vote.
If there are no serious objections or valid arguments against the
group's formation, the CFV (call for votes) will take place 21- 30 days
after the posting of this notice and will be tabulated by a neutral third
party.

The Follow-up to: header will be set to news.groups, where the actual
discussion will take place. To comment on the discussion, you must post to
news.groups or use the follow up header. Comments sent directly to the
sender, or to a newsgroup other than news.groups will have no effect on the
formation of this newsgroup. To follow the discussion, you must subscribe to,
or visit, <news.groups>  and you are encouraged to do so.

Suggested discussion period is 21 days.

Newsgroups the RFD is to be posted to:
news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.europe,

--
This RFD complies with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in
"How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup".
Gotthard Saghi-Szabo          WWW            :
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
                              personal email :